Elves

[Slart]

We need to find some other way to regain mana without drinking alcohol.

. . .

I mean, really, why are you so afraid of this? Haven't you ever heard the expression, "you need money to make money"? Please don't cast aside a good idea just because you can't open your minds a little bit.

I don't think anyone's "afraid" of the idea. I just think many people, myself included, aren't convinced that, as ideas go, it's truly all that good.

I'm not personally against the notion of an alternative to booze in the mud. However, it must be remembered that such an alternative will have some very specific requirements. It should not be instantaneous, and it should have negative effects comparable to the effects of alcohol in the game. Alcohol has two kinds of effects: the kind that are purely annoying, like walking the wrong direction and scrambled communication, and the kind that relate more directly to the game, like not being able to perform certain skills while drunk, or not being able to eat.

The kinds of things that have been discussed so far do not meet these requirements. While it's true that I've seen mana drain spells in video games, they have always had an extremely high failure rate, rendering them essentially useless for much, if not all, of the games. Even a substantial negative effect on hit/dam would not in itself balance a spell that significantly improves mana regeneration rate.

Until we see an alternative that is more closely analogous to the role alcohol plays in our game, I think you're going to keep seeing resistance. A single player's -- or even several players' -- philosophical objection to the use of ethanol as a mood-altering substance is important to acknowledge and respect, but it also not really a good reason to make "heal restore" available for free. (Yes, I know I'm exaggerating...it's to make a point.)

If you ask me, there's not ENOUGH time spent regenerating anymore. Remember when people used to resort to drastic measures like chatting to pass the time while they regenerated?

[Lairian]

More on Stars' hit/dam reduction...if you look down about halfway through the "What's the most powerful race" thread, Stars wrote:

Get that flaming eq and watch those mobs disintigrate before your eyes. Who needs extra attacks or high dam bonus? An elf wouldn't care if his hit/dam was 0/0. It would make no difference. Also, once a full set of flaming eq is aquired, an elf never needs to worry about hunting for eq ever again. All this leads to fast fast fast leveling.

I sense a contradiction here.

[Stars]

The open minds quote does seem far more harsh than I felt or intended. I am sorry if anyone was offended by it. I will not change it so that other people will see what we are talking about. I assure you I never intended to insult anyone.

Lairian, you sense a contradiction and yet fail to explain it.
I can only assume that you thik it is a contradiction to think an elf can get by without hit/dam, while I am willing to support a penalty to hit/dam to help balance out mana reserve. This is not enough to expose any nonexistent contradiction.
Elves with flaming might not need a high hit and dam, assuming they have the mana to support their dependence on magic. On the other hand, an elf who abandons a full set of flame eq (or cannot find it all), would prefer to balance out the character. This would seem to be the best option for a less enhanced elf so that when they run out of mana, then they can fall back on fighting skills. In this case, hit/dam is nearly as vital as mana.
In either case, hit/dam loss hurts. In the first example, the elf has nothing to fall back on and his minimal stats would be reduced even further. In the rare instance that fly runs out, or is dispelled, then the elf will most certainly die. That was how I managed to die at level 148 for the first time. The second example is obvious.
Just because I believe elves have the potential to be fast levelers does not mean they could do without improvements. I never claimed they were perfect. I am suggesting changes for everyone and anything that comes to mind. I also try to defend my ideas so that others can see more clearly what I am trying to convey. I have never been the most articulate writer.

As far as the bonuses and penalties, they can change. It is not written in stone that mana reserve has to be 50% or that hit/dam penalty would have to be 1/2. These rates are certainly up for discussion. If you recall, I was not the one who originally brought up the concept of hit/dam reduction (look back at slart's comments). I am just trying to accomodate all of your wishes, which is becoming increasingly difficult as opposition grows.

My statement that mobs disintigrate should be not be taken that all mobs will disintigrate everywhere as soon as an elf gets the eq. Magic needs mana. Only a certain number will die (or just one tough one) before mana runs out. The elf would be helpless then and heads off to sleep off a horrific drinking binge.

[Divebomb]

Lairian, you sense a contradiction and yet fail to explain it.
I can only assume that you thik it is a contradiction to think an elf can get by without hit/dam, while I am willing to support a penalty to hit/dam to help balance out mana reserve. This is not enough to expose any nonexistent contradiction.

But it is a contradiction. You want to give them a penalty to hit/dam in order to gain mana. Except if they don't need hit/dam what are you taking away from me? That's like giving me laser eye surgery to correct my vision but taking my hair. I don't need my hair... sure it comes in handy (attractiveness, warmth), but it's not necessary. You have taken something less valuable and given me something extremely valuable. This still falls under the "getting something for nothing" realm.

Elves with flaming might not need a high hit and dam, assuming they have the mana to support their dependence on magic.

enhance mana.

On the other hand, an elf who abandons a full set of flame eq (or cannot find it all), would prefer to balance out the character. This would seem to be the best option for a less enhanced elf so that when they run out of mana, then they can fall back on fighting skills.

Enh hp and mana.

In this case, hit/dam is nearly as vital as mana.
In either case, hit/dam loss hurts. In the first example, the elf has nothing to fall back on and his minimal stats would be reduced even further.

Hit/dam is not as vital as mana because it's a backup. Nothing forces the elf to continue to fighting when his mana is low. He can stop and recover. If he gets into a situation too big for him to handle based on his capabilities (his mana supply/limited fighting ability) he best flee or he deserves to die.

In the rare instance that fly runs out, or is dispelled, then the elf will most certainly die.

This happens to all races. I see no reason to change the way an elf makes mana because of the failure of a player to pay attention.

Just because I believe elves have the potential to be fast levelers does not mean they could do without improvements. I never claimed they were perfect. I am suggesting changes for everyone and anything that comes to mind. I also try to defend my ideas so that others can see more clearly what I am trying to convey. I have never been the most articulate writer.

It's fine that you post ideas, but you seem to get upset when someone (or in the case of the mana regen, most everyone, doesn't like it. Take it from my experience. Propose about 100 ideas and hope that 2 or 3 go in. That's usually how it works.

My statement that mobs disintigrate should be not be taken that all mobs will disintigrate everywhere as soon as an elf gets the eq. Magic needs mana. Only a certain number will die (or just one tough one) before mana runs out. The elf would be helpless then and heads off to sleep off a horrific drinking binge.

Only a certain number will die.... how is this not true for everyone? After so long, the dwarf has to heal. The human has to cast medicine. The elf has to regen mana. It's part of the game. You're basically making a proposal to remove that aspect of regeneration from the game so you can have constant hack and slash style.

Sleeping off the binge is not necessarily true. That may be your style. There are those who drink small amounts and rest for a tick after every fight, regaining what they spent on the fight. If you choose to drain your entire supply and then recover all at once, that's your style, and that's fine. Don't complain about your own chosen style though.

Every race has its drawbacks and it SHOULD have its drawbacks. However, compensation for those drawbacks does not need to be perfection. Because the elf doesnt use fighting tactics, does not mean he should be able to have his endless supply (or nearly endless) of mana. The dwarf has great hitting tactics and rarely uses mana at all. However he can't take down the mob 10 levels above him, but the elf can. Does this mean dwarves should regen hp faster and not get hit as much against said mob simply because it's a downfall that they get hit more those mobs? You accept the goods with the bads... the bad for the elf (and druid) is that you have to recover mana. The bad for the dwarf is that he's limited in what he can fight, has to walk everywhere, and has no healing spell to fall back on.

I'm starting to ramble, so i end...

[Lairian]

, agrees with DB.

Also to add, your arguement that elves that do not enhance must fall back on physical fighting is completely off. Lairian barely enhanced before level 37 and wasn't enhancing 5/level until about 42 or 43. By most peoples' standards on this mud, as I've come to understand it, that's barely at all. NEVER, EVER, never ever, never, ever, ever never, ever never ever do I fight at all without mana. Part of playing an elf is that you learn around level 20 to flee, lick your wounds and brain, and go back when you're feeling better.

See DB's comment about your choice of playing style, I suppose, but I don't think it's the mud's fault when you can't fit the square peg through the star hole, if you'll pardon the pun, without some patience and sandpaper.

[Stars]

I wrote this monster post, but it got lost somehow, which is probably just as well.

All races can easily regen hp in a great many ways. It's up to you to figure out how. Mana can be regained in only one way (two, if you count spending literaly millions of gold at a healer).

Every argument you guys have raised can be easily refuted, but I am too tired to rewrite everything I just wrote and lost. I am also just getting tired. If someone makes a statement that is correct and true, I acknowledge it. Most of what people are saying against my ideas here are not so strong. Think about them please.

The truth of what I will say next can be understood. Just look and think objectively.

Here is the crux of what I am trying to say.
There is imbalance between hp and mana. Fix it one way or the other, or not at all. As it is now, magic-users are on the short end of the stick. Is it a world-ending imbalance? No. Would the mud be a slightly better place without it? Yes.

That's like giving me laser eye surgery to correct my vision but taking my hair.

What?

[Eviene]

Sometimes the side effects aren't worth the cure.

[xorex]

So Stars, you probably have more experience with this than I do. Are elves unfairly harder to level than dwarves? Yes, hp and mana regeneration are not on equal footings, but hp and mana are not the same things. You can do alot more with mana than you can with hp so it seems to me that they should be valued a little higher and thus a little harder to get. I don't mean to imply that our current system is the most fair one. I just don't think we should put in an easier way to regenerate mana simply because there is an easier way to regenerate hp. You have to consider the differences between the two stats as well.

[Lairian]

Also, you get 35 hp/tick drunk and sleeping, and 105 mana/tick drunk and sleeping.

Is that fair to dwarves?

[Divebomb]

There is imbalance between hp and mana. Fix it one way or the other, or not at all. As it is now, magic-users are on the short end of the stick. Is it a world-ending imbalance? No. Would the mud be a slightly better place without it? Yes.

Why would it be better? Because it would be easier? That's the whole point you're not making. You have yet to give a reason why the MUD would be better besides it being a simpler game. Which, let's be honest, if mana let you cast twice or three times as many spells as it does now, you can't say the game would be harder or even as hard.

You'd level at twice the speed and kill twice as many mobs.

[Enter]

gah! can't read all those long posts of yours.. sorry

[Slart]

Here is the crux of what I am trying to say.
There is imbalance between hp and mana.

This is true. However, it is also not accidental. There are several reasons why this is a desirable feature in the game.

To put this into context, we'll compare the regen rates of elves/druids to those of dwarves/avians.

Code: Select all

                                  Base    Sleeping         Drunk
Elf/druid (25 int/wis, 13 con):  5hp/5m    18hp/55m      31hp/105m
Dwf/Avi (13 int/wis, 22-25 con): 5hp/5m   27-30hp/31m    49-55hp/57m

You see that at maximum rates, mana regenerates about twice as fast as hit points.

Druids can convert mana directly to hp at a 1mana = 2hp ratio (heal). This actually improves after level 31 or so, when cure critical surpasses heal for mana efficiency, but we'll stick with 2:1 for now. (Illithids' psychic healing surpasses heal for mana efficiency at around level 45.) Assuming full regen mode, sleeping and drunk, and most efficient possible use of mana, it'll take about 1375 mana to fully restore a 1000hp/1000m character from 1hp/1m, accounting for spell failures/backfires and hp regenerated while waiting for mana. That's fourteen ticks, or -- at roughly 45 seconds per tick -- about ten and a half minutes. As for elves, say they use about 450 mana (a seemingly high amount) teleporting around to addicts and the locations of various other healing items, and the wait comes out the same: about ten minutes to regen 1000/1000. A comparable dwarf would need a walk to Alandra plus eight or so ticks to recover...all in all, it adds up to about ten minutes.

The difference, of course, is that you can stockpile more heals, and sanctuary for that matter, but it takes time. Mana is consistently traded for time in the game; teleport, astral, and summon are direct examples of this; heal and sanctuary are more indirect examples as well, in consideration of the amount of time characters without them spend walking around to obtain them. I am not personally convinced this tradeoff is itself out of balance at present; it seems to me that the amount of preparation time is pretty similar for most races playing alone. Any change we might make to the mana/time tradeoff would directly affect how long it takes spellcasters to level, which doesn't appear to be a real problem today. Stars himself said in another post that elves level just fine. I guess I don't understand what's meant to be improved.

[Stars]

Ok, so elves level just fine for experienced players, but what about the newer players? I suppose the answer is that any race would be difficult to level for a newbie. I have heard more people complain that elves are the most difficult to level of all the races. Perhaps that has changed now. *shrug*
Like I said earlier, I'm tired. I'll drop this subject now.