What do you guys think about a spell that reduces mana cost?
Similar to a druid's protection and sanctuary, mana saving spells could be at different strengths gained at different levels.
Original cost to cast the spell would be high, but the mana retained later would be invaluable to a race dependent upon it.
-Stars
Elves
Elves
The stars brightly shine upon our world, a constant reminder of our origin. We are stars.
I'm not really sure what you mean, Slart. I see no difference between this spell and any other that already exists. I wasn't aware that any spell was a freebie. They all cost mana to cast. I have never seen any other spell with major drawbacks, other than mana cost.
If this is not enough, then perhaps during the duration of the spell the spellcaster does not feel the affects of alcohol.
Possible names for the spells are "Mana Reserve" and "Mana Battery". When cast, the elf draws mana from the world around and is filled with magical energy. Like a temporary battery, these spells provide for part of the cost for other spells.
Because the elf body is full of magic, it becomes immune to poison, disease and alcohol.
Mana reserve might cost 50-100 mana to cast, but saves on mana by 25%. Mana Battery might cost 75-150, but saves on mana by 50%.
Duration is determined by the level of the caster, just like other spells.
The mana spells cannot be cast on anyone else.
If this is not enough, then perhaps during the duration of the spell the spellcaster does not feel the affects of alcohol.
Possible names for the spells are "Mana Reserve" and "Mana Battery". When cast, the elf draws mana from the world around and is filled with magical energy. Like a temporary battery, these spells provide for part of the cost for other spells.
Because the elf body is full of magic, it becomes immune to poison, disease and alcohol.
Mana reserve might cost 50-100 mana to cast, but saves on mana by 25%. Mana Battery might cost 75-150, but saves on mana by 50%.
Duration is determined by the level of the caster, just like other spells.
The mana spells cannot be cast on anyone else.
The stars brightly shine upon our world, a constant reminder of our origin. We are stars.
I believe Slart's point is that it's a very powerful effect to be handled by only mana cost. Sure, all the other spells have only a mana cost, but they generally have very limited effects. Yes, this could be handled by having it have a very limited duration, by a high mana cost, etc. but the results of balancing it as such would make the spell fairly ridiculous until hero levels, imo. (What's the point of a 200 mana spell that saves mana on your other spells if it only lasts 3 ticks?)
-EB
Your local know-it-all.
Your local know-it-all.
No other spell has as its only purpose to give that mana back, plus some. Imagine a skill like pluck for avians that costs hit points, but instead of creating a feather, it quadruples the HP regen rate, easily making back more HP than it originally cost...Or, imagine being able to buy with gold the ability to make shopkeepers buy items from you at a higher price than the one for which they then sell the same item...Or if there were an enhance XP that gave you 750,000 XP and and an enhance gold that gave you 400,000 coins.Stars wrote:I see no difference between this spell and any other that already exists. I wasn't aware that any spell was a freebie. They all cost mana to cast. I have never seen any other spell with major drawbacks, other than mana cost.
Does that make sense? The only real effect of adding such a spell would be to decrease the real mana cost of every elf spell. It's buying a quarter for a dime.
I just thought it was funny that Slart said the spell was too powerful and then Stars added more benefits to it (protection from poison and stuff). 
I would rather see mana-regenerating ROOMS based on an altered version of the room_damage speco. Basically instead of doing 1-3 points of damage every couple seconds, the (no-take) object would either heal or harm X hit/mana points every couple seconds. Each of these would be customizable by the builder.
For instance nothing would stop a builder from a making the room drain hit points but regen mana, regen both, or drain both.
Then there's no over-powered spell for any race, just the requirement of getting to such a place and waiting it out. (I know it's not as useful as the original idea, but it's something, no?).
I would rather see mana-regenerating ROOMS based on an altered version of the room_damage speco. Basically instead of doing 1-3 points of damage every couple seconds, the (no-take) object would either heal or harm X hit/mana points every couple seconds. Each of these would be customizable by the builder.
For instance nothing would stop a builder from a making the room drain hit points but regen mana, regen both, or drain both.
Then there's no over-powered spell for any race, just the requirement of getting to such a place and waiting it out. (I know it's not as useful as the original idea, but it's something, no?).
Fine art is the only teacher except torture.
- George Bernard Shaw
- George Bernard Shaw
Ok, I am going to try and defend this idea one last time.
Slart's comparison's are not providing an accurate representation of mana reserve magic. Some of the conditions you presented have absolutely no drawbacks. They suggest unlimited gain, while this spell does not. Also, mana can only be spent, whether it is by half or full cost, for the benefit of the caster, unlike gold (which was a terrible comparison btw). Pluck already has a great benefit for an avian, so why suggest that it would have two great bonuses? Mana reserve has only one benefit. The distinction between what you have illustrated and the mana spell is clear. There is a big difference between actual gain and 1/2 mana cost. The caster does not get to keep any more mana. Indeed, mana is lost when the spell is cast, and more is lost whenever any other kind of spell is cast.
Here is an example:
If an elf has 300 mana and casts mana battery with a cost of 150 mana, then he does absolutely nothing for himself, and actually does more harm. After cost, the current mana is 150. Spent at 1/2 rate and it is like having 300 mana again.
Having 300 mana might seem true, except if the spell were somehow taken away the mana total would not return to its original number and would certainly not go beyond it.
Here is an example of an elf who can take advantage of the spell:
An elf has 500 mana and casts mana battery with a cost of 150 mana, giving him what would seem like the equivilant of 700 mana to use. This is assuming he uses it all before the duration of the spell wears off.
Even if it were true that the elf has 200 more mana than he started with, then anyone who has played elves knows that small gain is lost in an instant (less than one fight). The gain is not so amazing that it would unbalance the game in any way. If an elf has "power enhanced" mana, then the benefit of the spell is not as great as it might seem. A monster elf already has tremendous mana, and can do just about what he or she likes anyway. How tremendous of a difference is it for an elf to have 2000 full mana vs 3700 for a short time? They would be hard pressed to spend it all before having to cast the spell again. And if are forced to cast it again, then no more mana is actually gained. Another 150 is lost instead.
But if this is still not to your liking, then how about adding another penalty? The caster's mana points are set to 0 after the duration of the spell, regardless of how much is left. The idea here is that the elf put all his energy into creating the reserve, leaving nothing behind. Combine this with a relatively short duration, high mana cost and immunity to alcohol, and now we have drawbacks galore. But all that wiping mana away would do is prevent the monster elves from making the best use of the spell (as if they needed it in the first place).
I know that mana is an elf's best friend and greatest weakness, so I think this spell is worth stronger consideration. It is a good idea, and I don't want to see it brushed aside. Any other suggestions to improve this idea would be appreciated. If you still think it is beyond hope, then I will drop the subject.
Another suggestion for a mana spell would be similar to energy drain (I would think life drain would be a better name, leaving energy drain for mana *shrug*). This spell might end up being even more powerful than the one I suggested in the first place, since an elf could rampage across low level mobs and push the current mp off the charts. This could be averted, however, by preventing any gain from low level mobs. Not all levels below the caster of course. Don't make it too easy, but make it worth the little extra effort. Heck, it would beat sleeping off a horrific drinking binge. Alcohol is bad, m'kay.
-Stars
Slart's comparison's are not providing an accurate representation of mana reserve magic. Some of the conditions you presented have absolutely no drawbacks. They suggest unlimited gain, while this spell does not. Also, mana can only be spent, whether it is by half or full cost, for the benefit of the caster, unlike gold (which was a terrible comparison btw). Pluck already has a great benefit for an avian, so why suggest that it would have two great bonuses? Mana reserve has only one benefit. The distinction between what you have illustrated and the mana spell is clear. There is a big difference between actual gain and 1/2 mana cost. The caster does not get to keep any more mana. Indeed, mana is lost when the spell is cast, and more is lost whenever any other kind of spell is cast.
Here is an example:
If an elf has 300 mana and casts mana battery with a cost of 150 mana, then he does absolutely nothing for himself, and actually does more harm. After cost, the current mana is 150. Spent at 1/2 rate and it is like having 300 mana again.
Having 300 mana might seem true, except if the spell were somehow taken away the mana total would not return to its original number and would certainly not go beyond it.
Here is an example of an elf who can take advantage of the spell:
An elf has 500 mana and casts mana battery with a cost of 150 mana, giving him what would seem like the equivilant of 700 mana to use. This is assuming he uses it all before the duration of the spell wears off.
Even if it were true that the elf has 200 more mana than he started with, then anyone who has played elves knows that small gain is lost in an instant (less than one fight). The gain is not so amazing that it would unbalance the game in any way. If an elf has "power enhanced" mana, then the benefit of the spell is not as great as it might seem. A monster elf already has tremendous mana, and can do just about what he or she likes anyway. How tremendous of a difference is it for an elf to have 2000 full mana vs 3700 for a short time? They would be hard pressed to spend it all before having to cast the spell again. And if are forced to cast it again, then no more mana is actually gained. Another 150 is lost instead.
But if this is still not to your liking, then how about adding another penalty? The caster's mana points are set to 0 after the duration of the spell, regardless of how much is left. The idea here is that the elf put all his energy into creating the reserve, leaving nothing behind. Combine this with a relatively short duration, high mana cost and immunity to alcohol, and now we have drawbacks galore. But all that wiping mana away would do is prevent the monster elves from making the best use of the spell (as if they needed it in the first place).
I know that mana is an elf's best friend and greatest weakness, so I think this spell is worth stronger consideration. It is a good idea, and I don't want to see it brushed aside. Any other suggestions to improve this idea would be appreciated. If you still think it is beyond hope, then I will drop the subject.
Another suggestion for a mana spell would be similar to energy drain (I would think life drain would be a better name, leaving energy drain for mana *shrug*). This spell might end up being even more powerful than the one I suggested in the first place, since an elf could rampage across low level mobs and push the current mp off the charts. This could be averted, however, by preventing any gain from low level mobs. Not all levels below the caster of course. Don't make it too easy, but make it worth the little extra effort. Heck, it would beat sleeping off a horrific drinking binge. Alcohol is bad, m'kay.
-Stars
The stars brightly shine upon our world, a constant reminder of our origin. We are stars.
Stars, go back in time six to twelve months, play an elf, and THEN come back and say we're not powerful enough after flaming.
Elves right now are tiny gods! Leave them be. At level 30, mana is no longer a problem, and indeed at 40, I started running out of hit points before I could dump my whole mana pool (solo, I'm sure in a group this isn't quite true). Elves and their mana are a very VERY careful balance, and in my opinion, they may be past the line at the moment, and might need flaming gear scaled back to 8% or even 5%... We do NOT need further buffing, at least in the mortal lands.
Elves right now are tiny gods! Leave them be. At level 30, mana is no longer a problem, and indeed at 40, I started running out of hit points before I could dump my whole mana pool (solo, I'm sure in a group this isn't quite true). Elves and their mana are a very VERY careful balance, and in my opinion, they may be past the line at the moment, and might need flaming gear scaled back to 8% or even 5%... We do NOT need further buffing, at least in the mortal lands.
--Lairian
I have played elves since this mud first started. 
The reason why I have been so insistent about the elf race recently is because they have so many spells that are practically useless.
There was a time when some of them were at least a little effective.
We either need to return to the old ways and drop everything, or find a way to make the spells worthwhile now.
Elves are only slightly more powerful now than they once were. Giving them the flaming bonuses was nice, but the race still needs a major spell overhaul. But then again, so do most of the races.
-Stars
The reason why I have been so insistent about the elf race recently is because they have so many spells that are practically useless.
There was a time when some of them were at least a little effective.
We either need to return to the old ways and drop everything, or find a way to make the spells worthwhile now.
Elves are only slightly more powerful now than they once were. Giving them the flaming bonuses was nice, but the race still needs a major spell overhaul. But then again, so do most of the races.
-Stars
The stars brightly shine upon our world, a constant reminder of our origin. We are stars.
I wouldn't call doing almost three times damage slight.Stars wrote:...Elves are only slightly more powerful now than they once were...
Also, I use a LOT of my spells.
Still in the list:
Acid blast- When I'm at full health, much more regular damage than FB.
Fireball- High damage potential, better than AB when low health.
Chill Touch- Good damage still (can discombob) plus a -2 str.
Weaken- Big hit to mob str -> less damage hitting my bum.
Shield- Less damage to my squishy elfie body.
Stone Skin- Less damage to my squishy elfie body.
Blind- MUCH less damage to my squishy elfie body.
Sleep- Great for agro management.
Charm- As above, plus can order the mob to take of eq if successful.
Magic Missile- For mobs with SvM gear.
Identify- I use it a lot, should be mentioned. *shrug*
Locate Object- see above
Giant Strength- REALLY helps offset the wearing of caster gear.
Teleport- Helps when competing for mobs/grails/pills/portraits.
Frenzy- Nice buff to hit groupmates with, makes dorfs happy.
Call Lightning- It's AOE, clears rooms fast and efficently.
See Invis- Warning system helps me stay away from damage to SEB.
Infravision- Also warns of hidden mobs (red eyes).
Fly- No tripping, more casting.
Enflame Weapon- Obvious, I should hope.
Enchant Weapon- See above, plus makes new characters happy.
How is it again that we have a small spell selection?
"There is a spell for every moment, but only the wisest know when that moment has come"
--Lairian
Stars: In all your examples, the spell is either worthless -- mana lost or at least none gained -- or it's a free gain -- you get back more than the cost. My point here is that you could call the spell "free mana" and it would work out the same:
<500hp 500m 500mv> c 'free mana'
You failed.
<500hp 350m 500mv> c 'free mana'
You gain 200 mana.
<500hp 550m 500mv>
The mechanics are the same. Turning it into a crapshoot does put a damper on the benefit, but if there are no considerations other than mana, there are only two possible outcomes in the end:
- The spell, on average, makes more mana than it costs. People use it to gain a free advantage.
- The spell, on average, loses mana. People ignore it and never use it.
As for the gain not being enough to make a difference, if that's true, why bother at all? If it does make a difference, and it doesn't cost anything, how is that not a free advantage? I'm not trying to be difficult or get sarcastic here, I swear; I'm just trying to illustrate this key point. What does the spell cost? Mana. What does it give you in exchange for your mana? More mana.
One last thing -- acid blast is more powerful than fireball (on average) starting at around level 45 or 50. However, the minimum damage is lower until level 65 or 70. Despite what Lairian seems to have noticed, neither your current nor your max hit points affects acid blast damage.
<500hp 500m 500mv> c 'free mana'
You failed.
<500hp 350m 500mv> c 'free mana'
You gain 200 mana.
<500hp 550m 500mv>
The mechanics are the same. Turning it into a crapshoot does put a damper on the benefit, but if there are no considerations other than mana, there are only two possible outcomes in the end:
- The spell, on average, makes more mana than it costs. People use it to gain a free advantage.
- The spell, on average, loses mana. People ignore it and never use it.
As for the gain not being enough to make a difference, if that's true, why bother at all? If it does make a difference, and it doesn't cost anything, how is that not a free advantage? I'm not trying to be difficult or get sarcastic here, I swear; I'm just trying to illustrate this key point. What does the spell cost? Mana. What does it give you in exchange for your mana? More mana.
One last thing -- acid blast is more powerful than fireball (on average) starting at around level 45 or 50. However, the minimum damage is lower until level 65 or 70. Despite what Lairian seems to have noticed, neither your current nor your max hit points affects acid blast damage.
Last edited by Slart on Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
The spell does not create more mana. It reduces the cost of mana for other spells. In every case mana will be lost, sometimes more than others. This may seem like a small distinction, but it is important.
You suggested only two outcomes for the spell. It will be useful, or useless. The spell would only be useless to those with less mana. Meaning, they will need to gain some more levels before it can be used efficiently. In the end it will be useful to everyone, but still not too powerful.
Every spell out there gives something in return for casting it. Sanctuary, going by your thinking, gives 1.5 times current hps, right? Those are "free" hp. When sanc is gained from an item, then it is most certainly free. So should we now remove sanctuary from the game? Why do we balk when a spell directly affects our mana?
I will try to illustrate two different ways to think about Mana Reserve.
1. The magic-user looks at her list of magic things to do, and she realizes that she does not have enough mana to accomplish all the tasks. In order to prevent any illtimed mana shortages, she casts Mana Reserve. By drawing on her own power, she summons a temporary magical field around herself that will reduce the cost of mana for other spells. It helps to "reserve" her current mana. It is not easy to concetrate on the field, however. As time goes on, it gets worse and the it dissipates.
Some people claimed that this spell was too powerful so I had to come up with another way of looking at it. The new view might appear to add mana (appearing to do so more than the first idea), but once again it is illusion.
2. When a spell caster runs out of mana and needs to rest in order regain more mana, where does that mana come from? Maybe it comes from the world around, in the air and earth, or the trees and living creatures. Wherever the magic user gets his mana from, he gets it. When that magic-user casts Mana Reserve, he summons all his mana to draw from that source from which all magic comes from. In doing so, he stores up more energy than he spent in order to tap into that source. But because it requires effort to maintain the "reserve", it cannot be held long. When it disappers, all mana within is lost, sent back to where it came from. Knowing this, the mage heads out on his quest without delay.
By this view, more mana is gained and put into the reserve, but it is never added to the mana total of the magic user. It is not his. He is merely borrowing it. He never actually gains the mana.
But maybe it wouldn't be so bad to look at it as if mana were gained (going the other way from 1/2 cost to twice current mana). But the elf will always lose this mana, as the second view suggests. So how much is really gained here? None. Indeed, it is all lost.
As another quirk of the spell you could make it so that the elf's mana total goes to 0 when the spell is successfully cast since it is all in the "reserve". In order to see how much mana he has, the elf will need to look at the reserve. Either that or he never knows until it is all gone. Dispel magic would be devastating to the elf of course, since it would destroy the reserve and all the mana within.
-Stars of the super long posts
You suggested only two outcomes for the spell. It will be useful, or useless. The spell would only be useless to those with less mana. Meaning, they will need to gain some more levels before it can be used efficiently. In the end it will be useful to everyone, but still not too powerful.
Every spell out there gives something in return for casting it. Sanctuary, going by your thinking, gives 1.5 times current hps, right? Those are "free" hp. When sanc is gained from an item, then it is most certainly free. So should we now remove sanctuary from the game? Why do we balk when a spell directly affects our mana?
I will try to illustrate two different ways to think about Mana Reserve.
1. The magic-user looks at her list of magic things to do, and she realizes that she does not have enough mana to accomplish all the tasks. In order to prevent any illtimed mana shortages, she casts Mana Reserve. By drawing on her own power, she summons a temporary magical field around herself that will reduce the cost of mana for other spells. It helps to "reserve" her current mana. It is not easy to concetrate on the field, however. As time goes on, it gets worse and the it dissipates.
Some people claimed that this spell was too powerful so I had to come up with another way of looking at it. The new view might appear to add mana (appearing to do so more than the first idea), but once again it is illusion.
2. When a spell caster runs out of mana and needs to rest in order regain more mana, where does that mana come from? Maybe it comes from the world around, in the air and earth, or the trees and living creatures. Wherever the magic user gets his mana from, he gets it. When that magic-user casts Mana Reserve, he summons all his mana to draw from that source from which all magic comes from. In doing so, he stores up more energy than he spent in order to tap into that source. But because it requires effort to maintain the "reserve", it cannot be held long. When it disappers, all mana within is lost, sent back to where it came from. Knowing this, the mage heads out on his quest without delay.
By this view, more mana is gained and put into the reserve, but it is never added to the mana total of the magic user. It is not his. He is merely borrowing it. He never actually gains the mana.
But maybe it wouldn't be so bad to look at it as if mana were gained (going the other way from 1/2 cost to twice current mana).
But the elf will always lose this mana, as the second view suggests. So how much is really gained here? None. Indeed, it is all lost.As another quirk of the spell you could make it so that the elf's mana total goes to 0 when the spell is successfully cast since it is all in the "reserve". In order to see how much mana he has, the elf will need to look at the reserve. Either that or he never knows until it is all gone. Dispel magic would be devastating to the elf of course, since it would destroy the reserve and all the mana within.
-Stars of the super long posts
The stars brightly shine upon our world, a constant reminder of our origin. We are stars.