Yet another AC thread...

[Lairian]

I was talking with Leiland a while ago, and we were lamenting the overall not-too-helpfulness of AC.

Well, I got to thinking about what AC was exactly, and realized it was armor. No surprise there. The way armor currently functions in the mud is difficulty to hit you.

Now then, I'd like anyone to put on a suit of plate and claim that they can avoid attacks better when in it then when out of it. Or chain, or hard leather armor, for that matter.

So we talked a bit about this, and came up with the following...don't kill me, it's just a suggestion.

Armor is designed to keep you alive. It is a barrier around the person that takes hits for you. So, what I was thinking is this: Can we change armor so that instead of an evasion bonus it becomes straight damage reduction? The ratio would need a lot of tweaking, but 1/2 your AC is subtracted from all hits' damage rolls seems okay in my mind. This reflects the fact that the dwarf in full Clanghammer plate can be hit with a jackhammer while he laughs, whereas the kender in light leather (for dex bonuses, hit roll, whatever) takes significantly more damage, and the elf in flames takes full damage and is quite squishy against physical damage (as most flaming gear gives saves, not ac).

I'd also like a penalty to dodge and parry when your AC is high, as it would restrict mobility, and give bonuses to the kender in light leather and the human in magical pajamas over the dwarf in plate to make up for the dwarf's seeming ignorance that he's getting hit.

This might even mean that we could remove the ac cap, and let the avatars who go out of their way to get -2000 ac have a bone for doing so.

Sure, it would make high-end hero mobs and avatar challenge mobs harder since their ac ramps on a scary scale, but I've heard of the hit/dam on hero and avatar equipment, and don't most avatars complain about being bored?

[Divebomb]

That requires such a massive amount of change you can't begin to fathom it...

First of all, the inherent problem with your logic is that BR is illogical. We have many cases in BR where a skirt provides more armor protection than a set of platemail. The basis for the skirt's bonuses was the difficulty in getting the object in the first place.

So in BR-world, that plate of armor is really as useless as being naked.

Now let's assume we ignore that part and keep the concept we have of AC regardless of the item it's on... (meaning it's ok the skirt is better than platemail).

Now you have the problem of dexterity affecting AC, you're changing the biggest usefulness of dexterity right there (since it's been recently posted that dex has very little to do with dodge and parry). What will dexterity do now? Whatever you decide, it adds a whole new level of complications to the game because of the testing that has to be done on its affects.

Last thing I can think of is you're punishing the avian. You're right, AC doesn't affect THAT much. It has its perks, especially at low levels, but for the most part it doesn't defend you too much. Avians get crappy AC because they lose a few slots, so now they, warriors of the feathered-clan, get pummelled as much as an elf does under the armor logic? Seems unfair to me.


So final note... i really quite like the idea, i just dont think the effort will be put into a project requiring as much work as this.

[Lairian]

Well, granted that skirts are in some cases better than plate. This, in my mind, really is more the fault of the builder rather than the system...the biggest chunks of ac, at least in mortland, are the "affects ac by -X". If the builders put -50 ac on a skirt, that's a bit off in my mind...I much more appreciate the -20 ac off of Clanghammer plate or the shining steel breastplate. Granted, older equipment won't really match up with such a change to the system. (granted, skirts can have adamant plate sewn into them, or mithril thread in the makeup, or the builder could have just put a -X ac on the skirt so reflect that it's easier to dodge in so as to work with the current system; skirt makers, don't kill me, it's not your fault the items don't match my suggestion).

As for dex...I personally would think it would affect dodge and parry much more than ac. AC as it stands is difficulty in hitting you...shouldn't dodge be the difficulty in hitting you that is represented by your agility getting you out of the way, while AC is your armor helping you not get killed?

And avians wouldn't be hurt so much as you'd think...remember, under the system big AC means a big hit to the character's ability to dodge and parry. Thus, the dorf is hit with "whack, maim, smack, whack" while the human/kender is getting "dodge, parry, CRIPPLE", and the avian/elf is getting "dodge, parry, dodge, *** IMPALE ***". As I said, ratio balancing would take a bit of work.

The basic idea is that a character could go with a dodge and parry setup and raise up dex to try to avoid taking hits while hoping their damage output is good enough, OR raising up an obscene ac and doing lots less dodging in favor of making all the hits very small, OR try to find a fabled "sweet spot" in the middle.

I never claimed it wasn't a huge, drastic, nasty change, or that it was a quick fix. I just put it forward due to the extreme amount of complaints that have arrisen from the way that AC currently works. I expected an answer of "that's way too hard to do". ^_^

Just thowing out an alternative to see, because I don't have access to the code and can't really know how big a project that is.

[Everybody]

Alright. Aside from Slart's (still-standing, as far as I know) statement that he wouldn't know where to start to fix the combat code - which, to me, covers this idea - it's not a bad idea all told. My main problem is with the ratios, especially the suggested half of ac reduction. Considering you can get a -300 ac by level 30-something, the numbers work out badly. With sanc, no mob would be doing anywhere near 150 damage per hit. It also works out extremely poorly for the heroes, as mob ACs skyrocket in there. For examples - a level 65 mob has around a -300 AC, and Xor has -18,000 (Avatars can't deal enough damage to get around this - most imms barely can). If the damage reduction works both ways (and it sounds like that's what you're planning), mobs would simply outlast, as players would never really get anywhere near enough damage done. If we don't let them have the damage reduction, how does AC work for them? What happens when you have a positive AC (remove all your eq, it'll be positive)? All these would be things we'd need to address, in one way or another.

[Slart]

Our concept of "armor class" is lifted more or less directly, as I understand it, from Dungeons and Dragons, and not even a particularly recent edition of Dungeons and Dragons. The idea comprises two factors, which are different in real life but equivalent in game terms: a) the difficulty of landing a hit, and b) the difficulty of doing any damage if a hit does land. You'll notice that "miss" and "hit, but zero damage" are collectively the same outcome expressed two ways.

Either way, a piece of armor can improve your armor class either by a) being so hard/tough/thick/durable/etc. that it is difficult to pierce/dent/cleave/etc., or by having some kind of magical property that deflects weapons or allows you to sidestep attacks more quickly and deftly. It is perfectly reasonable that a sufficiently special skirt could provide more protection in this manner than full set of cheap plate armor.

It does make a certain amount of sense in an odd way when considered for what it is. As for changing it, I do sort of have to repeat that I am not at all convinced that I am qualified to try to reinvent the mechanics of the tabletop RPG. A significant rewrite of our combat engine could take more than a year to complete and balance correctly for regular play, and I'm not sure what we'd really have gained for our efforts in terms of making the mud a more fun place to play.

[Lairian]

Well, I said the ratio would need balancing. Half was more in my mind to help out the youngun's. Then again, they get shield, combat mind, armor, and bless from Clericus, so, I guess they'll live anyway. 1/3rd, 1/4th, something like that.

I understand the concept, but I've always hated the idea of how armor works in D&D. Then again, I also dislike how it works in Rifts, where all it is is a giant hit point buffer. The new Star Wars system is coming allong better, where classic D&D "AC" is defined by your dex, class, and level, and armor dissipates the first X damage, which is roughly where I'm coming from, allong with further bibliography pointing somewhat at Shadowbane.

However, if it's a monster of a project, and hard to code, it's probably not worth the time to take a gamble on being able to work out and balance, and nothing will change that. ^_^