additional affects of flaming items

[Lairian]

No, actually I'm more agreeing it would promote camping a spawn...

Possably for the better, especially if odds aren't equal (i.e. +damage flaming is the rarest, -mana flaming the most common).

[Slart]

This is going to be a very long post, especially considering that I don't honestly have an opinion one way or the other on the central issue of this topic, which is whether or not flaming items should help on spells that don't do damage. I can see both sides of that, though it is actually more difficult technically than it might sound.

However, Stars is clearly quite fond of spellcasters in general and elves in particular, and has written a number of things upon which I'd like to have a chance to comment. Stars, I swear I'm not trying to single you out! You're just the one saying the strongest stuff around here these days.

My elves have never missed 1millionzillion times in a row, of course, but they fail far too often. I often miss many(5 or more) times in a row against perfect matches. My spell % is at max, and wisdom is at 22. This should NEVER happen! . . . 50% against perfect matches is just wrong!!!

I don't know if it's right, wrong, or indifferent, but it's been 50% against perfect matches forever. The formula, as far as I know, has never been changed. Missing five in a row at 50% is a one in thirty-two chance, but there are other reasons why spells might fail (backfire, loss of concentration) that increase that a fair bit. It's not unheard of, to say the least. Your spell percentage and wisdom do not affect your victim's saving throw. In fact, there is currently NO mechanism for resisting your opponent's saving throw. Except for your level, the victim's saving throw is based solely on the victim's stats. Again, I don't claim to know whether that's right, wrong, or indifferent, but it's the way it's always been done.

Yes, druid spells can be found in other forms accessible to all races. What is your point, exactly? Many elf spells can be found in scroll form or wands and staves. My point was that druids do not have to go anywhere to use these awesome spells. They can cast healing spells during combat!

Druid advantages are, by and large, ones of convenience rather than actual power. They don't have to run around for sanc, they don't have to run around for healing, and they don't have to run around for mobs. However, every other race can, with a little work, replace every single one of their advantages. This is not true for ANY other race, short of storing up 500 fireball scrolls from Shudde-M'ell. It's true that only druids can really heal during combat. However, that's rarely a very smart thing to do when you're playing solo. It's almost always better to flee and then heal; getting killed because your heal spell backfired and the battle lag kept your wimpy from kicking in is one of life's harder to appreciate ironies.

I am bemoaning the imbalance that separates elves from all other races.

Most people I talk to do not see the imbalance that you do, or at least not to the same degree. Elves are a difficult balance; teleport gives them a huge advantage when it comes to collecting supplies like sanctuary and heal. This, combined with the fact that they can do quite serious damage to mobs far above their level, lends itself to gaining experience in large chunks. Their enhancing costs are greater than non-spellcasters, but teleport makes it easier for them to make money than other spellcasters.

They can miss blindness 1millionzillion times in a row, using up most of their mana, but at least they will eventually blind that darn thing before losing most of their hp in the process.

Stars is exaggerating here to make a point, but for all those young and impressionable mudders out there, using up a lot of mana casting blindness until it succeeds is an extraordinarily bad tactic. It's generally a better idea to cast blindness once, then move on immediately whether it succeeds or fails to spells that do damage.

A solution MUST be found for the benefit of the game.

Again, I'm not convinced the situation with elves is that bad. We will probably get around to completely retooling elves at some point (granted, that point might be 2013, but still), and I think that will probably be the time for really radical ideas to rebalance them.

That said, the idea originally put forth here isn't all that radical, and certainly merits some consideration. It is somewhat difficult because there is no current mechanism for resisting an opponent's saving throw, but that's not necessarily a reason to disregard it.

[Divebomb]

So maybe what we really want is a new spell that reduces saving throws (like Greater Malison that reduced by -4 to all enemies in a room from the Baldur's Gate games). -4 may not be substantial here but it was in that game. So start with that, then follow up with your blindness and boom! You have the effect you wanted from flaming but you have to work a little for it (meaning you have to successfully cast Greater Malison).

[Stars]

I like the idea, Divebomb. I am just afraid that we will run into the same problem trying to cast Greater Malison 1millionzillion times.
However, it does sound interesting. Perhaps the power of the spell would increase with the level of the caster? -1 or -2 for every level?
-Stars

[Everybody]

Probably more like giant strength or enchant... +1/5 levels, or 10 levels. At level 50, you'd be reducing your opponent's save by +5 (using it per 10 levels, obviously), which would be a... 25% better chance to get each subsequent spell through. That's fairly substantial.
I still don't agree that elves are poorly balanced, as of now. The ability, as Slart said, of dealing very acceptable damage to mobs a lot of levels above them makes them able to level quite well. Before flaming was fixed, yes, I had severe problems trying to level an elf - usually one mob was enough to drain either my mana or my hps. Now, with the increased damage, I can usually kill 3 or 4 without worrying about my mana running out, or taking overly severe damage.

[Lairian]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that adding such a spell would also reduce the mob's ability to save for half against acid blast, fireball, etc. Dropping the chance by 25% would increase damage a proportionate amount.

Despite the fact that I am one, in the mort areas I'm AGAINST us doing more damage. Kandy was actually fairly easy to kill at 44 once I got the hang of it...right now it's Kandy - 1, Lairian - 10.

I'm actually pretty sure I could have taken him at 40 or 41, knowing now what I've learn from the fights.

That's really scary, if you think about it...and dropping mob saves would make us even scarier. If it goes in, the mana cost would have to be fairly obcene to balance it out.

[Divebomb]

By the way, curse modifies save versus spell by 2 (which lowers saving throws) and spite modifies save versus spell by a number dependent on your level (mine at 153 does +19). The poor little elfies just got screwed because they're druid only spells.

[Lairian]

I'd personally like to think of it more as a desire to make the mobs worth paying attention to as you're killing them rather than the elfies getting screwed... ~_^

That's just my 2 jello shots.

[Stars]

Yes, elves are powerful and always have been...but only for one fight or two. I used to love heroing an elf by killing a level 60+ mob. It made the last fight more exciting. But with care, there was little risk of death.
The fact that elves can do damage to higher level mobs does not make it easier to level fighting against them. It just means more mana will need to be spent. Better to stick to fights that requires less mana so more kills can be made before mana runs out.
I just hope you guys remember that damage is not what I am concerned about. Remember that I am concerned about the non damage spells. I just know I am not the only one in the world who wants to see blindness, weakness and sleep used more effectively. But maybe not. Maybe I'm just crazy. Oh well, lunacy isn't so bad I guess. I get to make my own hours and can tell people that I'm from the planet Bob.

"Hello, I'm Bob from the planet Bob. We Bobonians sure like pudding."

-Stars