New Dwarf SLIST proposal
My comment didn't have to do with hit/dam bonuses on shields. My comment related to the dwarf getting a hit/dam bonus AND getting an extra block. If they're going to get the extra block AND the bonus skills, then I don't think they should get a 15% bonus. Maybe only a 5% bonus...
Fine art is the only teacher except torture.
- George Bernard Shaw
- George Bernard Shaw
Identify is easily obtainable in the form of scrolls from the magician as of level 12 or so. They're even pretty cheap. This is not a big drawback, imo.
I'd be wary about randomly downgrading things, Dive. I think it'd be pretty well balanced even with the 15% bonus... enough that it'd be worth going to playtest with that much, at least. As you said, though, I agree that blocking would be very, very powerful, and would, by itself, raise the amount shields would be used... adding another bonus to using them could be iffy.
On another note, I'd be interested in seeing a different cropping of spells for the imbue... perhaps to the extent of randomizing it by weapon you're trying to imbue (perhaps with general guidelines, i.e. all weapons of damage type <x> get a noncombat (detect, armor, etc.) spell, ones with affects over <x> times their level get only healing spells, etc.), or at least somewhat more random choices at each point you can practice it.
I'd be wary about randomly downgrading things, Dive. I think it'd be pretty well balanced even with the 15% bonus... enough that it'd be worth going to playtest with that much, at least. As you said, though, I agree that blocking would be very, very powerful, and would, by itself, raise the amount shields would be used... adding another bonus to using them could be iffy.
On another note, I'd be interested in seeing a different cropping of spells for the imbue... perhaps to the extent of randomizing it by weapon you're trying to imbue (perhaps with general guidelines, i.e. all weapons of damage type <x> get a noncombat (detect, armor, etc.) spell, ones with affects over <x> times their level get only healing spells, etc.), or at least somewhat more random choices at each point you can practice it.
-EB
Your local know-it-all.
Your local know-it-all.
One thing I just realized, shields should be tagged as not disarmable (I'm not sure if that's a real word 
) Anyhow...
personally I consider it a convenience to be able to identify, but buying scrolls from the magician is no big deal for me. One thing I'd like to see for the imbue and forge skill is for it to bring the item up to the level of the dwarf. All this really does in game is bring the level of the item up, (not down as that would allow for items with bonuses well beyond that normally achievable) and the damage/ base ac of the item up. For coding purposes it may be easier to make imbue and forge a single skill, working in that it takes the base item, brings the level to that of the forgemaster (negating bot usage) and then based on level applies certain other bonuses. If it's a weapon add a spell_weapon effect, and if it's armor/held add ac or save vs/spell. Of course this is all just suggestions at this point.
Teach
) Anyhow...personally I consider it a convenience to be able to identify, but buying scrolls from the magician is no big deal for me. One thing I'd like to see for the imbue and forge skill is for it to bring the item up to the level of the dwarf. All this really does in game is bring the level of the item up, (not down as that would allow for items with bonuses well beyond that normally achievable) and the damage/ base ac of the item up. For coding purposes it may be easier to make imbue and forge a single skill, working in that it takes the base item, brings the level to that of the forgemaster (negating bot usage) and then based on level applies certain other bonuses. If it's a weapon add a spell_weapon effect, and if it's armor/held add ac or save vs/spell. Of course this is all just suggestions at this point.
Teach
also with considering the skills, Iron Skin and magic Resistance should be just lumped into a single affect, "resistance" or something like that. A simple level based calculation for it would be great, AC reduced by level/2 and save adjusted by level/10 (or based on old 2e D&D, con/4.5 rounded nicely). Some Con-based affects would be appropriate IMO. Escape shouldn't be a dwarf skill, but rather a kender skill. No reason for us to run away, and if anything I would think it appropriate to double the xp loss for running (Considering that at 37 xp loss for running is trivial and has been for most of my career.)
Critical Strike.... Beautiful, just beautiful.
I like the option of having riposte, but I think for balance issues it should probably take the place of dodge, and be limited at 3/turn or whatever parry is limited at. I hate to say it, but it'd be silly for a dwarf to have a chance to clear a room just by mobs swinging at him. The 20% chance seems reasonable, although it might be more reasonable to use something that isn't used much, weapon weight. Faster weapon=higher chance I swing back. Normal applications of mob dodge/parry should still apply roundwise.
Bodyslam: I'm not sure what damage Roundhouse does, but if I have a chance at stunning myself in favor of more damage, unless it's a LOT! of damage, I'm gonna stick with kicking mobs.
shield & weapon: If I've got a shield, I should have a good chance of blocking, period. S&W should be a good skill and even made OoG for some of the other classes. If a shield has a bonus, good for it, that's a reason why you should wear it, as it is the only reason to wear a shield now is that stats that are on it.
Completely radical disarm proposal:
Ok this will hopefully make sense, on normal melee round attacker makes attacks (dual wield + triple attack), on a disarm if the defender has parries left, they apply parries like they would against normal attacks. After parries are resolved, the next roll is made, a contested weapon weight roll (as nothing else really should apply) in this case, assuming that the defender no longer has the "moves" to get the weapon out of the way. Anyhow, it then goes to something like (disarm skill + weapon weight vs (relative mob level) + weapon weight (like a save). In fact, coding wise it could be done as a 0 mana spell that simply uses weapon weight as a modifier, with the save bonus that a mob might have being that certain "something" that protects it.
hmm, that's it for now I think
Teach
Critical Strike.... Beautiful, just beautiful.
I like the option of having riposte, but I think for balance issues it should probably take the place of dodge, and be limited at 3/turn or whatever parry is limited at. I hate to say it, but it'd be silly for a dwarf to have a chance to clear a room just by mobs swinging at him. The 20% chance seems reasonable, although it might be more reasonable to use something that isn't used much, weapon weight. Faster weapon=higher chance I swing back. Normal applications of mob dodge/parry should still apply roundwise.
Bodyslam: I'm not sure what damage Roundhouse does, but if I have a chance at stunning myself in favor of more damage, unless it's a LOT! of damage, I'm gonna stick with kicking mobs.
shield & weapon: If I've got a shield, I should have a good chance of blocking, period. S&W should be a good skill and even made OoG for some of the other classes. If a shield has a bonus, good for it, that's a reason why you should wear it, as it is the only reason to wear a shield now is that stats that are on it.
Completely radical disarm proposal:
Ok this will hopefully make sense, on normal melee round attacker makes attacks (dual wield + triple attack), on a disarm if the defender has parries left, they apply parries like they would against normal attacks. After parries are resolved, the next roll is made, a contested weapon weight roll (as nothing else really should apply) in this case, assuming that the defender no longer has the "moves" to get the weapon out of the way. Anyhow, it then goes to something like (disarm skill + weapon weight vs (relative mob level) + weapon weight (like a save). In fact, coding wise it could be done as a 0 mana spell that simply uses weapon weight as a modifier, with the save bonus that a mob might have being that certain "something" that protects it.
hmm, that's it for now I think
Teach
I decided to tackle each of this as a different post. Raises my count and easier to understand...
I want the list limited to 4 spells. I don't care what those spells are to be honest. However, the idea of non-combat spells doesn't work that well because "defensive spells" on a spell weapon still get cast on the target not the wielder. For instance, a weapon with spell with "armor" will cast on the mob, not the player. Same with healing spells. Try attaching complete healing to a weapon....Everybody wrote: On another note, I'd be interested in seeing a different cropping of spells for the imbue... perhaps to the extent of randomizing it by weapon you're trying to imbue (perhaps with general guidelines, i.e. all weapons of damage type <x> get a noncombat (detect, armor, etc.) spell, ones with affects over <x> times their level get only healing spells, etc.), or at least somewhat more random choices at each point you can practice it.
Fine art is the only teacher except torture.
- George Bernard Shaw
- George Bernard Shaw
I don't think shields are disarmable, but they probably should be. You've never seen a movie or read a story about someone knocking someone else's shield out of their hands? Happens all the time. I, personally, don't care one way or the other.Teach wrote:One thing I just realized, shields should be tagged as not disarmable (I'm not sure if that's a real word
personally I consider it a convenience to be able to identify, but buying scrolls from the magician is no big deal for me. One thing I'd like to see for the imbue and forge skill is for it to bring the item up to the level of the dwarf. All this really does in game is bring the level of the item up, (not down as that would allow for items with bonuses well beyond that normally achievable) and the damage/ base ac of the item up. For coding purposes it may be easier to make imbue and forge a single skill, working in that it takes the base item, brings the level to that of the forgemaster (negating bot usage) and then based on level applies certain other bonuses. If it's a weapon add a spell_weapon effect, and if it's armor/held add ac or save vs/spell. Of course this is all just suggestions at this point.
Teach
Identify would be a convenience, but it's not going to happen.
Forge is simply repairing items, not improving them. It's harder to make something old and broken better than it was originally anyway. That's what you're advocating.
As for imbue, the spell on the weapon is cast at your level regardless of the level of the weapon, so you're not getting cheated by attaching a level 40 spell to a level 100 weapon or anything. I don't like the idea of raising the level because if people find a way to get the item on their level 2 alts, then they could sell it.
On top of that, raising the level of an item has no affect on an already-created item. Osetting (changing in the mud) a weapon from level 10 to level 30 does not increase it's average damage, that has to be done by hand. If you're advocating an increase in natural AC for armor or average damage for a weapon, then you're talking about making an ultra (aka OVER) powerful skill.
Fine art is the only teacher except torture.
- George Bernard Shaw
- George Bernard Shaw
I'm fine with making it con-based. The reason it's there is because Kiri wanted it. We wheeled and dealed on a couple of skills and she got that one. I already said it should go with the kender and I made the point of adding that if we give it to a dwarf it has to go to a kender as well.Teach wrote:also with considering the skills, Iron Skin and magic Resistance should be just lumped into a single affect, "resistance" or something like that. A simple level based calculation for it would be great, AC reduced by level/2 and save adjusted by level/10 (or based on old 2e D&D, con/4.5 rounded nicely). Some Con-based affects would be appropriate IMO. Escape shouldn't be a dwarf skill, but rather a kender skill. No reason for us to run away, and if anything I would think it appropriate to double the xp loss for running (Considering that at 37 xp loss for running is trivial and has been for most of my career.)
Thanky.Teach wrote:Critical Strike.... Beautiful, just beautiful.
I assume you mean the weight of your weapon. Interesting idea, and i'd be willing to go along with that. It'd be more like a % chance times the weapon weight (since usable weap weight caps at 45). The only inherent problem is that builders who have created weapons never bothered to pay attention to the weights they attached. You can find daggers of weight 7 and broadswords of weight 3. Changing that is a bigger project than writing a new race.Teach wrote: I like the option of having riposte, but I think for balance issues it should probably take the place of dodge, and be limited at 3/turn or whatever parry is limited at. I hate to say it, but it'd be silly for a dwarf to have a chance to clear a room just by mobs swinging at him. The 20% chance seems reasonable, although it might be more reasonable to use something that isn't used much, weapon weight. Faster weapon=higher chance I swing back. Normal applications of mob dodge/parry should still apply roundwise.
I don't see any reason it should completely replace dodge though.
Roundhouse does a lot of damage. A massive amount more than kick. Bodyslam (like roundhouse) would do more damage as you gained levels.Teach wrote: Bodyslam: I'm not sure what damage Roundhouse does, but if I have a chance at stunning myself in favor of more damage, unless it's a LOT! of damage, I'm gonna stick with kicking mobs.
Shield and weapon mastery has absolutely nothing to do with blocking. It gives you a hit/dam bonus to make you similar in damage power as a dualing dwarf. I don't think other races should get it oog with the possible exception of Avians (because their fighters). Any halfwit can pick up a shield and a sword, but that doesn't mean they can MASTER the fighting style of using them.Teach wrote:shield & weapon: If I've got a shield, I should have a good chance of blocking, period. S&W should be a good skill and even made OoG for some of the other classes. If a shield has a bonus, good for it, that's a reason why you should wear it, as it is the only reason to wear a shield now is that stats that are on it.
I think the concept of blocking should be included for all the races. Anyone can hide behind a shield. It may not save them, but they can do it. If this were to occur, I would want to re-address the bonuses. Blocking would make S&W a very powerful style - a hit/dam bonus, plus an extra block, plus the shield bonuses. This may make dualing and 2-handed less appealing. That's more of a playtesting experience though and can't be discerned on this forum.
See weapon weight comment above...Teach wrote: Completely radical disarm proposal:
Ok this will hopefully make sense, on normal melee round attacker makes attacks (dual wield + triple attack), on a disarm if the defender has parries left, they apply parries like they would against normal attacks. After parries are resolved, the next roll is made, a contested weapon weight roll (as nothing else really should apply) in this case, assuming that the defender no longer has the "moves" to get the weapon out of the way. Anyhow, it then goes to something like (disarm skill + weapon weight vs (relative mob level) + weapon weight (like a save). In fact, coding wise it could be done as a 0 mana spell that simply uses weapon weight as a modifier, with the save bonus that a mob might have being that certain "something" that protects it.
hmm, that's it for now I think
Teach
Last edited by Divebomb on Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fine art is the only teacher except torture.
- George Bernard Shaw
- George Bernard Shaw
Aside from not being explained particularly well (too code-centered), the problem I see in this idea is that a basic premise you used to set up the idea isn't valid under our battle code. Namely, that defenders get a certain number of parries that they can't go beyond. The way the code is actually set up is that it's a flat percentage roll (scaled against level and several other modifiers) against each attack. It's not that you'll ever really ever run out of parries, it's just that as more hits come at you, especially from multiple opponents, your chances of parrying those attacks goes down.Teach wrote:Completely radical disarm proposal:
Ok this will hopefully make sense, on normal melee round attacker makes attacks (dual wield + triple attack), on a disarm if the defender has parries left, they apply parries like they would against normal attacks. After parries are resolved, the next roll is made, a contested weapon weight roll (as nothing else really should apply) in this case, assuming that the defender no longer has the "moves" to get the weapon out of the way. Anyhow, it then goes to something like (disarm skill + weapon weight vs (relative mob level) + weapon weight (like a save). In fact, coding wise it could be done as a 0 mana spell that simply uses weapon weight as a modifier, with the save bonus that a mob might have being that certain "something" that protects it.
-EB
Your local know-it-all.
Your local know-it-all.
You've been misinformed, EB, and this time I'm not taking the blame.
All characters get a maximum of level/8 dodges + parries each round. For the purposes of the calculation, mobs are capped at level 50, or six parries/dodges per round. This is why very large groups have a synergistic effect -- and why dwarves seem so strong in large groups. Similarly, it seems like high-level players never run out of parries because they almost never take more than eighteen hits in the same round.
All characters get a maximum of level/8 dodges + parries each round. For the purposes of the calculation, mobs are capped at level 50, or six parries/dodges per round. This is why very large groups have a synergistic effect -- and why dwarves seem so strong in large groups. Similarly, it seems like high-level players never run out of parries because they almost never take more than eighteen hits in the same round.
I'll be danged... it's probably not that I was misinformed, but that I was trying to apply knowledge that didn't actually relate to the discussion to it (i.e. the explanation you gave me from a while back on how an individual hit is determined "hit" or not). Given this information, I believe I now have to rescind my objection to Teach's idea.
-EB
Your local know-it-all.
Your local know-it-all.
One thought about the skills, it might be neat to implement a "master" of certain styles (sword/shield, dual, 2hander) and stash those trainers in some odd location level appropriate for the dwarf to find, like perhaps a trainer in clanghammer for one skill, and maybe a trainer somewhere else for another skill, This would also be a great way to send people off to zones that might be underutilized otherwise.
My apologies on the disarm proposal, it was getting a little late (well, it's late now too) and I was trying to get an idea across. What I was trying to get across was an idea for actually being able to "resist" being disarmed, since there really isn't any way to prevent disarming except for being first to the punch.
As for sword/shield style, I think that giving the same hit/dam bonus that dual will get would be appropriate, with block being it's own ability also available. Logic behind this, you're only getting one weapon's worth of attacks as opposed to 2 weapons worth. The other weapon's use is sacrificed for block.
Btw, slart, do characters get lev/8 parries & lev/8 dodges, or is it just lev/8 of the 2 together, however it feels like applying them. Right to the point, is it pointless to have redundant dodge/parry skills?
More disjointed opinions
Cause critical doesn't really have a place on the list. Flavor wise, it just doesn't seem like it belongs. (Hums the sesame street "one of these things isn't like the other tune")
Umm, dual wield isn't on the slist....
The imbue ability should check for spell_weapon as opposed to magic IMO, as I've found weapons that don't ID as magic but are spell_weapons.
Imbued affects would be neat if they were more flavorful than just a damage spell, something with functionality like "spellcleaver" (dispel magic) seems a bit neater than "really pointy" (cause serious.) Another twist that might be interesting would be type specific effects, IE 2handers can get earthquake whereas a comparable 1hander would get a single target nuke.
As before, the ideas are very much, take or leave them.
Teach
My apologies on the disarm proposal, it was getting a little late (well, it's late now too) and I was trying to get an idea across. What I was trying to get across was an idea for actually being able to "resist" being disarmed, since there really isn't any way to prevent disarming except for being first to the punch.
As for sword/shield style, I think that giving the same hit/dam bonus that dual will get would be appropriate, with block being it's own ability also available. Logic behind this, you're only getting one weapon's worth of attacks as opposed to 2 weapons worth. The other weapon's use is sacrificed for block.
Btw, slart, do characters get lev/8 parries & lev/8 dodges, or is it just lev/8 of the 2 together, however it feels like applying them. Right to the point, is it pointless to have redundant dodge/parry skills?
More disjointed opinions
Cause critical doesn't really have a place on the list. Flavor wise, it just doesn't seem like it belongs. (Hums the sesame street "one of these things isn't like the other tune")
Umm, dual wield isn't on the slist....
The imbue ability should check for spell_weapon as opposed to magic IMO, as I've found weapons that don't ID as magic but are spell_weapons.
Imbued affects would be neat if they were more flavorful than just a damage spell, something with functionality like "spellcleaver" (dispel magic) seems a bit neater than "really pointy" (cause serious.) Another twist that might be interesting would be type specific effects, IE 2handers can get earthquake whereas a comparable 1hander would get a single target nuke.
As before, the ideas are very much, take or leave them.
Teach