New Dwarf SLIST proposal

Here's a place to talk about each of the races - which is better, what changes you'd like to see, and just general commentary on each.
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Divebomb
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New Dwarf SLIST proposal

Post by Divebomb »

WARNING! THIS IS REALLY REALLY LONG! :shock:

This has been discussed with a few people in detail to hash out some of the finer points. Now I release it to the general public for more comments

* indicates OOG
- skills in CAPS are new and are explained at the bottom

Code: Select all

Level	Spell		
1	bash	headbutt	kick
2	trip		
3			
4	rescue	throw	
5	CRITICAL STRIKE		
6			
7	second attack	disarm	
8	cure light*		
9	giant strength*	berzerk*
10	WEAPON MASTERY	dual	
11	parry		
12	FORGE		
13	cause crit* 	TWO-HANDED MASTERY	
14	COUNTERATTACK		
15	CHARGE		SHIELD AND WEAPON MASTERY	
16	SHIELDBUCKLER	cure blindness*	remove curse*
17	BARRAGE		BODYSLAM	
18	cure poison*	cure disease*	
19	third attack		
20	RIPOSTE		cure serious*
21	SHIELD ATTACK		
22	dodge		
23	MAGIC RESISTANCE		
24	bless*		
25			
26	frenzy		
27	ESCAPE
28	WHIRLWIND ASSAULT	SPINNING ASSAULT
29		
30	IRON SKIN	
35	protection* 		cure critical*
40	WEAPON MASTERY*		IMBUE
51	(the normal hero spells)
60	(IMBUE)	
80	WEAPON MASTERY*
100	(IMBUE)	
120	WEAPON MASTERY*
140 	(IMBUE)
NOTES:
- 3rd attack would lose its current OOG XP penalty
- Enhanced damage was removed. See skills below for explanation
- It's likely that kenders will receive "escape"

(A) = automatically used or affects automatic
(S) = user initated skill (like roundhouse)
(AF) = user initated affect (like vision)

BARRAGE (S)
Initiated once during battle. Enables an autoattack but causes a 50ac and -50mv penalty (ac recovered at end of fight)
Note that autoattacks are more likely to hit than a regular attack: "Your barraging attack ***IMPALES*** the mob.

BODYSLAM (S)
dwarf jumps on mob, does damage like roundhouse, miss and stunned for 5 rounds (chance based on practice %)
stunned = lag

CHARGE (S)
Opening attack for large damage, knocks mob to the ground (like trip) unless flying.
Like dive with a bonus trip. No chance for instakill. Can charge flying creatures, just cannot knock them down.

COUNTERATTACK (A)
when using a shield, 25% chance to strike an opponent when they hit you
You must take damage in order for this skill to kick in. Your damage may be more than theirs, but they have to hit you.

CRITICAL STRIKE (A)
5% Chance for a blow to ignore AC and level and strike anyway
10% chance that the critical strike will do double damage.
This means two rolls... one to see if the strike goes through and if so, roll again to see if the double damage goes through.

ESCAPE (S)
dwarf is able to roll out of the way and escape an attack. The skill will be "Flee" without an xp penalty.

FORGE (S)
Allows dwarf to repair damaged armor assuming it's repairable (just like Beich or Harry)

IMBUE (S)
dwarf is able to imbue a magical non-spell weapon with a spell (item becomes no-drop, personalized, timed)
New spells are received later
Syntax: imbue <weapon> <spell>
SPELLS:
40 - cause serious
60 - cause critical
100 - fireball
140 - flamestrike

IRON SKIN (AF)
ac = currentAC - level/2
If your armor is -100 and your level is 50, your AC is -125 as long as it's active.

MAGIC RESISTANCE (AF)
-5svs bonus as long as active.

RIPOSTE (A)
The dwarf uses his strength to force a weapon back at the opponent and cause them to strike

themselves
Skill only usable on mobs with weapon
Chance = 20% times practice%

S & W MASTERY (A)
Increases hit and damroll by 15% when using a shield and weapon

SHIELD ATTACK (S)
dwarf uses his shield as a weapon, damage based on the weight of the shield

SHIELDBUCKLER (AF)
when using a shield, 75% less chance of being disarmed (think firm grasp)

SPINNING ASSAULT (S)
Room Attack: Only usable with 2-handed weapon. Spinning attack with 2 round lag that does double damage to mob if it connects.
5% chance the mob will be knocked unconcious for a round (calculated for each mob).

TWO-HANDED MASTERY (A)
Increases hit and damroll by 15% when using a two-handed weapon.

WEAPON MASTERY (A)
acts like enhanced damage with a better modifier (CODE comment: from 150 down to 120)
Practice syntax: prac weapon mastery <weapontype> (prac weapon mastery slash)
Instead of enhanced damage for all weapons, the dwarf will receive an "enhanced damage" for a particular damage type. The first weapon type is in guild, as others become available (3 more) the dwarf suffers an OOG penalty.

WHIRLWIND (S)
dwarf makes twice as many attacks as usual, lags for 3 rounds, and unable to dodge/parry until lag gone (same effect as a demon's hook on a mob).
This will double a barrage attack as well.
This does not guarantee hits, only guarantees twice as many attempts. If you normally have up to 4 attacks, then you will have up to 8 attacks.


THE BIG QUESTIONS ANSWERED!!
Q: Why was enhanced damage removed? I love enhanced damage!
A: I know this is the #1 complaint with this slist. I know that weapon mastery doesn't appear to be as good as enhanced damage. However, the new skills are written and balanced to make up for this. If you use your mastery type then you're going to do more damage with this (weapon mastery) than you would have with enhdam. This creates diversity in characters (which type will you focus on?) and enables different ways of playing (see next question). You're only limited on the type of weapon you use in order to get the bonus. The question really boils down to, would you want to sacrifice the ability to use 5 or 6 skills in order to have enhdam for all weapon types? I hope not...

Q: What's with the masteries? I don't understand!
A: I've designed dwarves to make them replayable by allowing you to choose from 3 different styles of gameplay.

- Dual-weapon style. This is what you're used to. Playing with two weapons. Your bonus skill is "Whirlwind attack".

- Shield+Weapon style. Wielding a weapon, offhanding a shield. Your bonus skills are shield and weapon mastery, shieldbuckler, shield attack, and whirlwind. The mastery is meant to make up for the hit/dam loss of using only one weapon and the loss of an attack from dual. In return you've been given a user-initiated damage skill, shield punch. This is likely to depend on shield stats - to be fleshed out later.

- Two-handed weapon style. Using a two-handed weapon. This already gives you a 1.5 damage bonus. In addition, the mastery gives you a hit/dam bonus to make up for the same as S+W style. You're also given the spinning assault - tHe only room attack a dwarf gets that doesn't have as many drawbacks as whirlwind.

The short answer is replayability, diversity, and challenge.

Q: What's with the OOG spells? Why are they there and why those?
A: Dwarves are usually thought of as fighters or clerics. I chose clerical spells that did not make them too powerful but gave the option of the dual-classing aspect we hold dear. Cure critical may seem to be an overly powerful skill for them, but they get it pretty late in the mortal levels.
Last edited by Divebomb on Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Divebomb »

Clarification:

The idea behind imbue is that it can only be used on a MAGICAL wepaon. The dwarf uses their blacksmithing skills to draw out the potential of the magic and harness it within the weapon (thereby creating a spell weapon). As they grow in levels, they gain a better understanding of such powerful blacksmithing techniques and can draw out different spells.
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Post by Anakin »

Imbue, WW, Weapon Mastery... DB wanna rush me through hell? ;)

I want to see this implemented in the future.


I think the revamp of the skills of each race sounds interesting.
Reason: I'm bored of using kick for Kender, Dwarf, Human. :|
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Post by RadicalEd »

I think it sounds great, and i would DEFINITELY be more likely to play a dwarf, just as i will be waaaay more likely to play a human, hey i might actually start a new char for fun :twisted: how about that! But these skills also seem to be more dwarf oriented, rather some of the strange magics that dwarves got....

And i think your poll results show your answer as well :D
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Post by Shonsu »

Any chance of changing bash to a Dwarf only skill. And have bash used to bash doors and chests. Much like how it is used in Neverwinter Nights.
just a thought.
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Post by Divebomb »

Shonsu wrote:Any chance of changing bash to a Dwarf only skill. And have bash used to bash doors and chests. Much like how it is used in Neverwinter Nights.
just a thought.
This is a commonly suggested skill and i'll tell you why I don't like it. BR has no way of distinguishing different door types. For instance, a portal that is locked because a special chant is required to open it (which can be found in the tome on the nasty mob) is no different than a wooden door leading to someone's house. You could bash the house door, but could you bash the portal? I think not.

So this suggests !bash doors and !bash containers. What do you think is going to happen? We have !pick doors/chests. Why? Because builders want you to earn the stuff and with pass door and pick lock that's really too easy already.

I would rather see bash be a better skill than trip. It requires a shield (so makes it another shield style skill) and knocks the mob to the ground (doesn't work on flying). The mob cannot flee and may even suffer some kind of hitting penalty (like a weaken affect). It would cause some lag on the dwarf, but not as much as trip and would be less than that of the mob the dwarf is bashing.
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Post by Anakin »

It is good to see that the shields have an actual use this time. Last time I saw someone using a shield was an illithid and he still changed to a 2h weapon.
RadicalEd wrote:I think it sounds great, and i would DEFINITELY be more likely to play a dwarf, just as i will be waaaay more likely to play a human, hey i might actually start a new char for fun :twisted:
Who are we joking here? Rad playing another character? Nah.. :P
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Post by RadicalEd »

hey now :P But no i'm getting bored with rad... figure i'll try at least another char will suffice :P But hey with all these changes i might try two!!! :D
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Post by Everybody »

Looks like a well-thought out revision. I'll be interested to see it go in. However, I still have a couple clarifying-type questions:
I'm curious to know why counterattack wasn't listed under the advantages for s&w style play, since it seems you've designed that particular skill to only kick in when using a shield.

The way you describe it in two-handed style explanation, whirlwind seems to be a room attack, but the skill explanation only says that it doubles your attempts for a round, seeming to be against one target.

I like the way weapon mastery works out, but your explanation implies that it'll do less damage, even in the chosen weapon type. 150% damage for all weapons is better than 100% for all weapons and 120% for weapons of a certain damage type. I could be reading your comment wrong, but that's the way it appears to me.

As far as oog's, I think they're well chosen, with the exception of dodge being ig, and getting cause crit at level 13... I don't think druids even have it at that point. We could easily push that back a bit and give dwarves cause light and cause serious, too.
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Post by RadicalEd »

Everybody wrote:The way you describe it in two-handed style explanation, whirlwind seems to be a room attack, but the skill explanation only says that it doubles your attempts for a round, seeming to be against one target.

I like the way weapon mastery works out, but your explanation implies that it'll do less damage, even in the chosen weapon type. 150% damage for all weapons is better than 100% for all weapons and 120% for weapons of a certain damage type. I could be reading your comment wrong, but that's the way it appears to me.
I saw them the same way EB did, i just figured that's what you intended. Is it true?

I'm sure this is aparently obvious to everyone, but i just wanna check. Once you reach avatar, you get all the masteries correct? Just wondering cause i'll plan to learn certain masteries earlier on to get greater damage at avatar if that's not the case. And is there a way to have greater advantage to learning these masteries earlier? Kinda like with spells it costs less the longer you know it?
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Post by Divebomb »

Everybody wrote: I'm curious to know why counterattack wasn't listed under the advantages for s&w style play, since it seems you've designed that particular skill to only kick in when using a shield.
I just forgot to include it in the Q&A section. :) I also had thought of it on two planes that I guess i mixed at some point. It could be a shield bonus in that if you block with the shield (blocking!) you have a chance to counterattack OR it would be used with any style and you would have a CHANCE to counterattack ONLY if you took damage. That would be something to discuss...
Everybody wrote: The way you describe it in two-handed style explanation, whirlwind seems to be a room attack, but the skill explanation only says that it doubles your attempts for a round, seeming to be against one target.
Whirlwind isn't a room attack, spinning assault is. Spinning assault is usuable only a 2-handed weapon. Whirlwind is usable with two weapons (dual) or with weapon and shield. Whirlwind doubles number of attacks but only targets one mob, spinning assault doubles damage with chance to stun and targets all mobs.
Everybody wrote: I like the way weapon mastery works out, but your explanation implies that it'll do less damage, even in the chosen weapon type. 150% damage for all weapons is better than 100% for all weapons and 120% for weapons of a certain damage type. I could be reading your comment wrong, but that's the way it appears to me.
You're reading it wrong. At the moment i don't remember exactly why I had that in there, but based on the code for calculating damage from enhanced damage a lower number is better. I think the calculation was PRAC% / 150 = enhdam modifier. So currently the best you can do is a 66% increase (100/150). With WeapMastery you'd get 100/120 or 83% damage increase.
Everybody wrote: As far as oog's, I think they're well chosen, with the exception of dodge being ig, and getting cause crit at level 13... I don't think druids even have it at that point. We could easily push that back a bit and give dwarves cause light and cause serious, too.
It's always been my opinon that fighter skills should be in guild for fighters. Dodge is a fighter's skill. Sure, casters could practice it, but it's not a native feat for them. I don't have anything against dodge being oog, that's just my rationale. :)

Cause (X) can be moved and relocated a plenty. To be honest, I didn't spend much time thinking about where to place the OOGs. I was more interested in picking the spells themselves and designing the new skills.
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Post by RadicalEd »

another question i forgot to mention before. What will happen to the current dwarves in br? Will they stay with the skills they started with? or will all dwarves be replaced with these new skills? Same goes for the human revision. I'm fairly certain its the first option, but i just wanted to make sure :D
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Post by Everybody »

Actually, I'd assume they'd switch entirely over to the new system, since most of the code changes are "hard-coded" and would affect that race. I guess it would be an option to introduce "new" dwarves and humans as a separate race number (the way each race is differentiated now), and just let "old" ones phase out, but that might also be quite a lot of extra work that Slart wouldn't really need to do.

Back to the topic: thanks for the explanation on weapon mastery. It makes the revamp a lot more palatable. I have a slight issue with riposte, mostly in that it's somewhat misnamed (a riposte isn't forcing an attack back at your opponent, it's parrying and then attacking afterwards... the description was more like the formal term "attacking with opposition," which certainly doesn't roll off the tongue as easily). As far as counterattack... I'd like to see the shield bonus of blocking (i.e. another dodge/parry) for its own merits, and this would be a nice bonus in addition, if it seems that s&w style is somewhat lacking, yet. Otherwise, I'd vote for putting it when you take damage, so that all three styles could use it. For dodge, it just doesn't seem like dwarves are really all that agile. :wink:
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Post by Divebomb »

If we add the concept of "blocking", then I think part of the s&w style needs to be downgraded... namely the 15% bonus to hit/dam for the style mastery. If they're getting an extra block, then they're not getting hit as much. If they're not getting hit as much then they don't deserve the bonus that makes up for the hit/dam loss of dualing.

I'm equally pleased with either decision, but I'd want it one way or the other.
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Post by Croplin »

I think that all races should get the ability to block attack when using a shield, It makes sense and not so many charactes use shields.
Some races could be better at it and dwarves could be very good if they practice s&w mastery.
A downside could be that NO shields can have bonuses for hit/damroll but only armor bonuses. This way maybe the bonuses for s&w wouldnt be to powerful

//Croplin :mrgreen:
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