What is Real?

Divebomb · Post by **Divebomb** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 11:38 am

Stars wrote:It doesn't make it that much harder on people, but it does add some more realism.

I use this quote from Stars because it's a well written version of the common thought. It brings up a topic of conservation that pops in and out of lots of threads. So let's give it its own. It's deserved it.

How much realism do you actually want in Barren Realms? We have alcohol as a regenerative process. Is that real? Of course not. Is making it hurt your fighting abilities a way of making it real? Yes, but is that the right thing to do? Doesn't it take away from the game instead of enhancing it?

Realism needs to be taken in context. What is "REAL" in terms of a "FANTASY" world? We go out and slay children and goblins and creatures made of candy. This isn't real in our world. Should we change Barren Realms to be full of only humans because then killing humans is more realistic. Of course not.

We wear frost armor coupled with rings of leaves and leather skirts (for boys, girls, and its alike). First person to show me someone (besides themselves) walking around in that getup IRL gets a rename. Nobody complains about this because it's an accepted aspect of the Fantasy aspect of the game.

So I suppose my question is how much realism do you think needs to go into BR from the real world? If having a a few tequilas makes you unable to walk IRL, should it in the game? If it makes you unable to lift yourself, nevermind a sword, should you not be able to fight? It's open-ended, I just use alcohol as an example, throw out other exampls if you like!

Ginzor · Post by **Ginzor** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 1:12 am

Another thing how realistic is it to hold to weapons a light and a held item at the same time?

Stars · Post by **Stars** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:31 am

...with hands and arms hampered by armor.

Since I was the one quoted, then I feel the necessity to defend my opinion.

No one here has suggested that the game is perfectly realistic, nor has anyone (to my knowledge) claimed that it should be perfectly realistic. However, there has to be some kind of foundation from which fantasy can build. If everything were off floating around randomly, then we would not have a game at all. Saying we should not have realism in a game so that it will be fun is like saying the universe should be without order so that it will enhance our lifestyles. But if there is no order, then how would the earth revolve around the sun? How would the sub-atomical particles know how to hold together to form the foundations of matter and energy? Nothing can exist without order. Likewise, no fantasy story (or game) would make sense without some "realism".
If you want to make alcohol a regenerative potion, then call it a potion. What is the purpose of making a harmful substance in real life seem positive in BR? We might as well promote smoking, or shooting smack, or freebasing vanilla wafers.
In some cases, realism is vital.

Divebomb · Post by **Divebomb** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 2:27 pm

Stars wrote:We might as well promote smoking, or shooting smack, or freebasing vanilla wafers.

Or the mass slaughter of women and children. Oh wait...

Lairian · Post by **Lairian** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 2:30 pm

We do promote drug use.

What character hasn't popped at least one red pill?

I think we're getting worked up about nothing; it's high fantasy (for the most part, and I understand Kiri is trying to phase out non-fantasy).

How does one define mana? Is it creativity? Pure energy? Unviversal understanding? Creativity could easily be augmented by booze, as I'm sure anyone else who's ever bartended can agree...you get some really out there thought patterns. Pure energy? A bit more of a stretch for booze to help, unless some bi-component of the biological breakdown of ethanol is a mana-esque molecule. Here we step away from fantasy. As far as universal understanding, the Tibetan monks have used tea in their meditative practices since it was introduced (as raising and drinking tea repeatedly is in fact a pratice of zen). The caffeine could be said to help in some way. Is it that much of a stretch to say that any biological altering substance at least helps you down the road to understanding?

---
-Lairian, who shouldn't be allowed to post less than 2 hours after waking up.

Stars · Post by **Stars** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 9:21 pm

Stepping aside from the fantasy discussion a moment...
Mind-altering drugs will never help you down the road of understanding. They just alter your mind, sometimes permanantly. Only because alcohol reduces inhibition would some people feel it is easier to express themselves. Alcohol has no direct effect on creativity. How creative can a person lying in a pool of their own vomit be, anyway? (I can just see someone making a quote and joke of that last statement

). Any artist who relies on foreign substances to enhance their natural talent is not really enhancing their talent. They are killing themselves. How many times have you seen something like this with famous musicians or actors? It is not only the one using drugs that suffers, those who love the person also suffer. Do not glorify drugs, please. They only bring pain.

Back to Barren Realms now...

Ok, I might just be defeated here. While I maintain that alcohol should change, I realize that not enough people are going to support my view. It seems that people think it is fun to pretend to get drunk or use drugs. Who am I to say what is entertaining? There was a time when I felt the same way as others here. In a game setting, fake drinking and drug use seems innocent enough. I am just afraid that some young impressionable child playing on our mud might only find another source in this corrupt world telling them that it is good to hurt themselves.
I should stop being a father in Barren Realms and just stick to being an elf, or druid, or demon...or angel? *hint* *hint*
-Stars
(Coders, you do a great job. Even if nothing changes, this is still the best place to play!

)

Lairian · Post by **Lairian** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 3:16 am

I do not glorify drugs. I merely state the fact that this mud does indeed reward players for drug use. This could mainly be the fact that potions/pills cannot cause negative effects on players. I'd also like to state that I'm a teetoler and the hardest drug I've ever used was caffeine.

Are you sure mind-altering substances won't give you understanding? The only way to truely make that statement would be to have complete understanding. If you had that, you'd be making billions in the stock market, not posting on these forums. ~_^ Also, as a matter of history, since as far back in archeological history as we can find, man has been using various methods to alter his conciousness, from drugs to intense physical work to asphixiation. This usually was part of religion in some way/shape/form. Note that I'm not saying go get hooked on smack, I'm just pointing out how extremely prevalent altering your conciousness is in the effort to attain understanding of some sort.

Also, to claim that creativity is not enhanced by altering your conciousness would have some serious counterarguements. Some of the most prized poetry to have ever come out of man was written under the influence of something (Khubulah Kahn and Rime of the Ancient Mariner for example), as well as late-rennaisaunce to premodern art. Also, regard what is commonly agknowledged as the high point in rock and roll and modern music, and you'll find almost every band pushed their conciousness somehow.

Are drugs and alcohol bad for you? Almost all of them have been proven to have detrimental effects on the human body. Does the mud endorse drinking and drug use? Indirectly, but there is no requirement that you use them to play. In life you have the choice to use them or not as well. I doubt that mud is going to desensitize anyone to drugs or alcohol half as much as watching tv nowadays will.

If you're really really up in arms about this as "a father" then I'd stick along the line of trying to get alcohol's name changed to regeneration potions that mess with your body as they reconstruct it (thus inhibiting your tongue) rather than trying to change an aspect of the mud that has been around since...however long booze has been around in BR.

Divebomb · Post by **Divebomb** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 7:19 am

Lairian wrote:stick along the line of trying to get alcohol's name changed to regeneration potions that mess with your body as they reconstruct it (thus inhibiting your tongue)

Brilliant idea. Give that man a chocolate chip cookie.

Seriously, this is the best idea i've heard yet about an alternative to alcohol. Same object, different name. We can rename all alcohols in BR to non-alcoholic names and it doesn't change the mechanics at all. "Potion" may be a bad name because of the thought off quaff, but "solution" or something else could be an easily viable alternative.

polgara · Post by **polgara** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 9:33 am

ok...let's define "drug use".

red pills = healing
penicillin = healing

bad drug (lag central I believe) = frenzy
pcp = frenzy

I wouldn't say the mud is promoting anything but fun.

Otherwise, we'd all be pcp smoking/alcoholic/mass murderers...and let's not forget Cthululu-esk demonworshipers (multilimbed demon god. heh)

I do like some things to be "real", but DB raises a good point...what is real? technically, nothing is real on the mud. nothing.

Last time I saw an elf I was buying Keebler cookies...you?

Polgara

Stars · Post by **Stars** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 12:32 pm

It is a lie to think that any drug can enhance your consciousness. You are buying into something that has never and will never be true. Do you sincerely believe what you are saying? Do you understand what you are saying? Just because some ancient (or not so ancient) religious fanatics have used drugs doesn't make them the ticket to enlightenment. All they are learning to understand is temporary psychosis.
Life can easily be seen, and does not require any assistance from chemical substances. In fact, these drugs inhibit consciousness. They most certainly do not enhance it.
Artists working under the influence are suffering from an illness, either as a result of their addiction or from a deeper psychological disorder. They would be able to produce greater work for longer times if they could express their talent without the unfortunate inhibition of chemicals.
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, since Lairian used him as an example, became addicted to laudanum (an opium derivitive), which was a widely used as a remedy for ailments in those days. If I understand the history of this poet correctly, he wrote "Kubla Khan" and "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" sometime around 1796. It wasn't until later (around 1799-1800) that he started taking Laudanum for his poor health. Even if he did believe his drug helped him write, it certainly did not have any influence on the inspiration for these two works at least.
http://www.gale.com/free_resources/poet ... idge_s.htm
Even after he became addicted, who is to say his views on religion and life were not a result of his own creative mind? There is no way to know for sure, but I bet he would have thought just the same if he took aspirin instead of laudanum.
Some of the brightest minds have never taken drugs. Only when the rare person, whose talent is so great to overcome such a debilitation, does chemical use become an object of interest.
There are far more drug-users who end up dead in the street, then there are who create beautiful things. Sadly, many would-be artists waste their lives in the hope that chemicals will help their art.
As a father, I hope that my children never buy into this lie.

xorex · Post by **xorex** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:43 pm

Hmm, I've never heard anything about "Rime of the Ancient Mariner" being linked to drugs, but in the introduction to "Kubla Khan" Coleridge specfically describes his inspiration for the poem as an anodyne induced dream (He actually says that he composed the whole poem in his dream and then woke up and started writing it, although some critics think that he made this up to affect the way people read the poem). Other than that, I don't think Coleridge ever looked at his drug use as helping his creativity. I'm taking a course on the Romantics right now so I probably should just stop here before I right a whole essay.

As for drugs enhancing creativity, whether they do or not, they do not have to do so on BR. I think changing the name of alcohol would be a good idea. Since its effects don't seem to mirror real life that much, it should be linked in a positive way with something that in real life has serious negative effects.

However, I think, if possible, it would be better to add a new liquid type that functions the way alcohol does now instead of changing the name of every alcoholic drink in the realms. Perhaps, we could remove the positive regenerative effect of alcohol and leave it in the realms. It would still be a novelty item in the realms that would add flavor to the game. I don't think anyone would object to alcohol making it difficult to walk and talk and hold food down. I partially suggest this because, even if alcohol is not a regenerative potion, a dwarf still likes to down his mug of ale and it seems unnecessary to remove all alcohol from the game if it is no longer giving a false, positive depiction of the drink. I think it would be a little strange if none of the taverns in the realms served ale or mead.

Lairian · Post by **Lairian** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:16 pm

Vote Cthulu 2004. Between (him?) and Bush, he's the lesser of two evils.

As far as what to rename, you wouldn't have to get too special...

A vial of viscus mana
A decanter of distilled mana
A flask of purified mana
Etc.

Unless that was a sarcastic response I took wrong. *shrug*

The corrilary to it only noting mana is that mana arises from life (in most mythos) and that indirectly adding mana would add health and life...this would also indirectlyindirectly explain why you get back 35 hp/tick and 105 mana/tick.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:44 pm

I personally don't think that having alcohol have positive effects like that is such a horrible thing. It's come up a lot, but Stars is using the same scapegoat that the people who sue video game companies are. It's the mud's fault if I become an alcoholic. It's the company's fault if I mimic GTA: vice city, buy myself a shotgun and steal a car, shooting random people everyhwere I go. If people can't distinguish between fantasy and reality, it is not our fault for giving them fantasy. We have not advertised it as anything other than fantasy. It is not our job to create a game where all our shops sell tofu, fruit and vegetables, we hand out tooth brushes as levelling prizes, and people gain experience by helping little old ladies cross the street and giving out parking tickets. I know this is a huge exaggeration, but I'm trying to make a point here. Would you play a game like that? This game is based off of older role-playing games and fantasy books. In general, the fantasy genre is a whole lot of race wars, random fights along a hero's journey, and the one evil man with a plot to slaughter everyone who stands in his way to ultimate power. They're not usually happy bunny kiddie stories, and there's usually a whole lot of blood involved. But they're just books. We read them precisely because they're not real. They're something different, new, and exciting. This mud works the same way.

Leiland · Post by **Leiland** » Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:47 pm

Ok, note to self: log in before posting replies. That last one was me, so direct all complaints my way.

RadicalEd · Post by **RadicalEd** » Sun Apr 06, 2003 9:24 pm

Complaints go where again? What about comments?